Author Topic: Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...  (Read 3490 times)

Miti

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Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...
« on: November 10, 2013, 03:37:32 PM »
Hi Folks...

That's my V1000 off the road now, we've started to get quite heavy frosts up here now and the local council has started to salt the roads... I've seen and had to deal with salt damage to various bikes and I'm not going to visit that on my V1000!!

So, she'a had a good wash and scrub-up, I've run the engine until it got piping hot and then drained the hot oil out... Over winter I have a long list of maintenance and upgrade tasks to sort out and one of then I'd like a bit of advice with...

Over the past couple of years, I've dealt with a number of oil leaks on the engine... Most have been sorted with a bit of common-sense and careful reassembly of appropriate parts... The area I'm seeking advice with is the four screws that hold the stationary camchain slipper blades into place...



I've spoken to Mick Broom, Paul Sleeman and the firm who restored this bike back in 2007... They all say the same basic thing... "These screws have no mechanical seal and they are sealed by adding a small amount of silicone sealant around the screw when refitting".

I've also been told that my engine had the sealant applied on reassembly, but these screws are still leaking... The front cyl leaks down onto the crankcase and then sprays oil onto the rear (RHS) exhaust, where it's s bugger to clean off again..!!  The rear cyl leaks down the sock where the oil collects around the oil hose connectors and then down the rear of the crankcase...

I've confirmed that the oil is creeping out of these screws (clean, check, clean again, check again) and I'm determined to stop it... Packing more goo around the screws isn't a proper solution (IMO), so I'm going to go one of two ways:

1.  Modify the screws so that they'll accept an o-ring seal - cutting a groove into the head of each screw and fitting an appropriate seal.



2.  Replacing the original screws with alternates that will allow the fitment of a Dowty seal or Stat-O-Seal:





Thoughts anyone..?

Jeff
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 09:55:41 AM by Miti »
1975 Triumph Trident 750 (New Project)
1980 Yamaha XS1100 (Midnight Special)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Trike Project)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Reg'd 1985)
1982 Hesketh V1000 (Pre-Production Engine)

R3SC

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Re: Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2013, 06:47:03 PM »
Hi Jeff,
The engine will be coming out of my bike tomorrow and I will give the screws in question a good look over. It's interesting that you point out problems such as this as i will now know to look carefully at the problem.

When I have had chance to look I will get back to you with my thoughts. I have just bought a complete box of different size Dowty washers for when the bike is re assembled as the use of these seems to be fairly prolific on this bike so maybe that's an option for me.

On a seperate note, I have found a company that sells a nice high spec RTV silicone sealant which is good for 300deg C and is metallic silver to match alloy and stainless and I'm sure this will come in handy during the rebuild!

Cheers

Pete.

Miti

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Re: Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2013, 09:37:30 PM »
Mind your back Pete..!!  I reckon the engine is about 350 lbs out of the total 550 lbs...

It is, apparently, easier to lift the bike off the engine... ;D

I have found Dowty seals all over the engine, but I don't thik that they're appropriate for every application I've found them in... In particular, the banjo oil-feeds (EN10) to the camchain covers don't appear to be compatible... I found that my banjo bolts are "stepped" with a central section that is less than 10mm... Additionally, the banjo unions are of a diameter that places metal to metal when Dowty seals are used...  When I first started using the bike, both unions leaked... I've seen Dowty seals before, but I'm much more accustomed to copper crush washers... So that's what I've fitted... Both unions are now oil-tight...

BTW:  Photos of your bike and your progress would be very interesting indeed...

Jeff
1975 Triumph Trident 750 (New Project)
1980 Yamaha XS1100 (Midnight Special)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Trike Project)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Reg'd 1985)
1982 Hesketh V1000 (Pre-Production Engine)

R3SC

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Re: Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2013, 10:08:27 PM »
Hi Jeff,

Yes, you're right about the weight of the motor. I've been ready to remove it for a week or so now but I've been waiting for a mate of mine to come over and give me a hand.

I'm currently passing the time by polishing the nickel frame where it had gone green under the tank and panels etc. Slow work but rewarding and I've got one side of it done already but only after many hours with fine wire wool and solvol!

I'll jump onto the exceptionally steep learning curve and try to post some images tomorrow on my work PC so look out for them. At the moment it's just the frame with the motor in it and the front wheel on for support but I'll try to post a selection as I've been stripping it down.

Re the Dowty seals, I'll only use them where they are original and I do find that the bike is a mixture of Dowty and plain copper sealing washers and as you say, the banjo oil pipes are on copper washers so these will be replaced with new copper which I have also ordered.

The heat is off a little at the moment as I took a number of items for re chrome on Saturday, only to be told that they are on 8-10 weeks delivery so I have plenty of time as they won't be back until the new year! At least it will give me more time to rebuild the carbs nicely, polish all the engine covers and get all the nuts, bolts and other fixings re zinc plated, always something to do!

I do need to push on though as I have a very nice 73 GT750K which is waiting to go on the lift ready to be fettled for next spring. "Er indoors" will think I've left home"

Regards

Pete.

Miti

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Re: Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2013, 10:46:28 PM »
A "Kettle Fancier" eh..?

Never had one as early as a K, but did have an M, an A and a written off B model... The B was recovered as salvage after a work colleague had creashed it backwards into a tree... It hit the tree about 12 feet up the trunk and that is a VERY long story...

I had the M model between '83 and '84



It had an A Model Tank and a KH400 front mudguard, so looked like an A, but the frame/engine numbers and the red hi-beam tell-tale made it to be an M...

I had the A model for 12 years and spent a small fortune updating it...



The B model was only fit for use as spares as the frame was absolutely totalled...

I hope your K model is complete, or you'll be facing the same sort of spares problems again... Admittedly there were many more GT750Ks built than V1000s, but NOS spare parts must be in similarly short supply now...

Jeff
1975 Triumph Trident 750 (New Project)
1980 Yamaha XS1100 (Midnight Special)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Trike Project)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Reg'd 1985)
1982 Hesketh V1000 (Pre-Production Engine)

R3SC

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Re: Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2013, 10:59:44 AM »
Hi Jeff,
The GT's look great! The "K" I have is very complete but in need of some TLC, which it will get in the new year.
In the meantime I have tried to include two images of the "Angry Chicken", as it was when I got it and how it is at the moment. This is my first time including images so it may not work.
Cheers
Pete



« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 09:50:16 PM by HOCAdmin »

Miti

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Re: Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2013, 10:00:27 AM »
Back on topic...

I've spoken to quite a few folk on the subject of sealing these threads and I've been persuaded that use of a proper, modern, anaerobic thread sealant will be entirely satisfactory... So, against my gut feelings (I do like a nice mechanical seal).  I've invested in a bottle of Loctite thread sealant and, after meticulously cleaning the casing and screw threads, I've liberally coated the slipper blade retaining screws and tightened them up properly with my largest flat-bladed impact driver bit fitted into a small socket.

We'll see.... ::)

Jeff
1975 Triumph Trident 750 (New Project)
1980 Yamaha XS1100 (Midnight Special)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Trike Project)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Reg'd 1985)
1982 Hesketh V1000 (Pre-Production Engine)

Miti

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Re: Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2014, 10:45:42 PM »
A bit more on this...

Whilst changing the timing chains on my V1000, I noticed that the two rearmost bolts holding each "sock" to the crankcase are "through holes".  So, I've aded a smear of my Loctite thread selant to them too...

And... In order to remove the rear sock, I had to remove both oil-pipes... I just couldn't get access to undo the rear screws with them in place... Both hoses appear to have a 1/2" dowty seal between the fitting and the crankcase, but they were covered i some sort of grey "sealant".  This did a great job of glueing the rubber parts of the dowty seals to the crankcase and making those rubber parts completely un-salvageable... Nice pack of new self-centring dowty seals on order... ::) ::)

Jeff
1975 Triumph Trident 750 (New Project)
1980 Yamaha XS1100 (Midnight Special)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Trike Project)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Reg'd 1985)
1982 Hesketh V1000 (Pre-Production Engine)

Miti

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Re: Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2014, 12:04:40 PM »
Just for additional info... I found it impossible to source 1/2" Dowty seals (don't ask me about the 1/2" BSP ones I accidentally ordered) so I've been forced to go with 12mm self-centring ones...
 :-\
These have turned out to be a tight (but manageable) fit on the two oil-pipe unions and a near perfect fit on the camshaft "quill" oil feed bolts... :D

I've also used Loctite thread sealer on the oil-pipe unions and I don't expect any problems there, so (hopefully) I have just one known weep to deal with now...  The bolt securing the rear brake torque arm to the LHS rear crankcase...

I'm told that this bolt should be in a blind hole, but that was the case with the three p-clip securing bolts on the bottom of the engine... All three were drilled right through into the sump...

This one can't be fixed with the weight of the bike on the stand, so I'll address this after doing the bolt-mod to the rear wheel and changing the drive chain...

Busy, busy...

Jeff
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 03:07:51 PM by Miti »
1975 Triumph Trident 750 (New Project)
1980 Yamaha XS1100 (Midnight Special)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Trike Project)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Reg'd 1985)
1982 Hesketh V1000 (Pre-Production Engine)

Mr B

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Re: Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2016, 02:38:13 PM »
Hello all, in an effort to stop my four cam chain fixed tensioner mounting screws from weeping oil on the "Dark Side of the Sock" so to speak I was thinking of removing them one by one and use a thread sealant when I put back in, each pair done with the piston at TDC compression.
My question is can this be done this way or do I risk the fixed tensioner moving and then preventing me getting the screw back in? Would first slackening the chain tension help or make matters worse?

Also does anyone have any details on the two rubber oil pipes from the crankcase up to the cooler. Mine are not surprisingly looking slightly crazed with age and seem to be always oily on their surface like they've gone a bit porous. If anyone knows the thread size of the fittings into the casings and also the ones onto the cooler please so I can make up news ones.

Many thanks ...Roger 

Miti

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Re: Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2016, 08:57:39 PM »
Hi Roger;

You'll find it extremely difficult to remove those screws with the chaincase still mounted on the engine, but your best bet is to try the front cyl first as the slipper blade is 'lying down' at the bottom of the case and is less likely to move...



I used a Loctite thread sealant - liberally...  Seems to have done the trick...

Best bet for the hoses is Paul Sleeman at Hesketh Motorcycles...  He had new ones made up for the 'Kingswood' V1000s...  He may even have stock...

Jeff
1975 Triumph Trident 750 (New Project)
1980 Yamaha XS1100 (Midnight Special)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Trike Project)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Reg'd 1985)
1982 Hesketh V1000 (Pre-Production Engine)

Mr B

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Re: Keeping the Slippy Stuff Inside...
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2016, 01:41:26 PM »
Hello Jeff and other owners just to let you know that you can remove the tensioner bolts one at a time and refit with plenty of thread sealant and they do stay oil tight. Lots of degreasing with meths in a spray bottle is required and long flat blade screwdrivers do come in handy but the tensioner doesn't move during the process, so now I'm only down to a few oil "weeps" at the top of the socks.
Regards the rubber oil feed pipes that wasn't as successful, don't believe a hydraulic hose supplier that tells you the threads into the engine cases are 1/4" BSPP or JIC threads, they are most definitely not, they are 1/2" UNF. Practically the same OD but BSPP is 19tpi and UNF is 20tpi.