Author Topic: Spragged..!!  (Read 4626 times)

Miti

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Re: Spragged..!!
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2015, 11:51:09 PM »
Triple checked the wiring today... Tested the DC resistance of the coils and how the new relay operates... All OK...  :-\

Got the bike running, but she kept dropping onto one cyl, with the rear cyl 'flooding'

I know the carbs were set OK before all this, so i went back to basics with the ignition...

I checked the gap between the rotor and the pick-up coil - too small to measure - Don't know how as all the screws were still tight..?

The rotor was covered in surface rust too... I cleaned the rotor and re-set the gap to 0.25mm.  I double checked the gap on both lobes of the rotor - had to settle for 0.25mm on one and 0.30mm on the other as there is a little 'run-out' on the trigger shaft assy...

Got her started (eventually) and used a strobe to check the timing... It appears to be miles out...  How can that be..?  I'm now concerned that the Rita unit is playing me up...

Aaaargh...!!  I'm supposed to be taking her to Spain in three weeks...!

Jeff
1975 Triumph Trident 750 (New Project)
1980 Yamaha XS1100 (Midnight Special)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Trike Project)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Reg'd 1985)
1982 Hesketh V1000 (Pre-Production Engine)

MICK

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Re: Spragged..!!
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2015, 10:27:53 PM »
Hi,
The things you do up north to entertain yourself  :-[
Some casual comments from an old man
If you reverse the wires on the reluctor pick up the timing is way out and does not advance.
The reluctor will carry on working if you cannot see the thing and it's covered in rust, it only needs a magnetic pulse.
The air gap needs to be as tiny as possible without the bits hitting each other to get a spark at low revs, not the easiest to achieve because the outer bearing is not in position and you think the play in the shaft will allow it to destroy itself but the thing has no play when the cover is fitted.
Put it back as it was and I bet it will go.
If you have had the tank off then you need to reset the carbs  >:(
Mick

Miti

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Re: Spragged..!!
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2015, 03:37:40 PM »
Hi Mick.

Thanks for your input...  I've not reversed the pick-up wires - they're still in the OE connector, with the terminal set 90o to each other...

I'll re-set the reluctor gap with the smallest feeler gauge I have...

I only cleaned off the rust, 'cos it's rust and I'm allergic to it... ;)

The bike was running fine up to the point where I re-packed the silencers and it backfired... It broke the sprag and I had to replace that (again).

I have been meaning to re-set the accel pumps since I bought the bike as it's always chucked piles of unburnt fuel down the exhausts.  I've re-set the carbs 'by ear' to ensure both slides were opening/closing together.  I'll balance then with vacuum gauges when she's running well enough to do so...

When I finally got her running on Sunday, I used a strobe to check the timing... The timing mark on the rotor appears to be about 10o retarded..!! :-\ (Or I am..!!)

With the strobe connected to the front cyl and the bike idling at approx. 1,000 rpm (digital tacho), the rotating mark appears about 10o to the right of the stationary one (The one at '12 O'Clock).  Revving the engine moves the rotating mark further to the right...  This has me confused... Isn't that further retarding the ignition..?  Clearly I need to consider this with a clear head...  My blooming strobe light needs a degree in astro-physics to operate and it's been WAY too long since I needed to do this...  I just don't understand why the timing might have maladjusted at all... None of these componnets have been fiddled with since I last took the covers off and that was literally thousands of miles ago... ???



Jeff
1975 Triumph Trident 750 (New Project)
1980 Yamaha XS1100 (Midnight Special)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Trike Project)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Reg'd 1985)
1982 Hesketh V1000 (Pre-Production Engine)

Miti

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Re: Spragged..!!
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2015, 03:01:08 PM »
Back to the fray today...

I went back to basics and read and re-read the manuals... It wasn't long before I realised where I had gone wrong...

On the V1000, we have two cylinders set at 90o to each other, there are two sets of timing marks, also set at 90o to each other and there is one pickup, with a single rotor, having two lobes, (you guessed it) set at 90o to each other...

The trick is to know which lobe, and which set of marks goes with which cylinder...  ::)

That's where I went wrong... I was checking the timing marks for the rear cyl, with the strobe pick-up clamp around the front HT lead... :P :-[

I reset the rotor to pick-up gap with my thinnest feeler (0.05mm), set the engine for full advance with rear cyl @ 'TDC' on compression...  Fuel on, chocke on and she just started... No back-firing or fuss, just started... ::)

I let her warm up and checked the timing... It was cock-on.  34o of advance from 5K rpm up...

I refitted he cover over the timing pick up and re-checked the timing... Still OK...

Looks like we might make Spain after all... Still got to check how's she's running with the accel pumps backed off, but things are cetainly looking up...  :)

Jeff

1975 Triumph Trident 750 (New Project)
1980 Yamaha XS1100 (Midnight Special)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Trike Project)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Reg'd 1985)
1982 Hesketh V1000 (Pre-Production Engine)

Rob B

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Re: Spragged..!!
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2015, 04:41:59 PM »
Hello Jeff,

That surprises me a bit because the HESKETH has a wasted spark ignition system with the RITA unit connected to both coils. Hence, it doesn't matter which plug lead you use because they both fire together for the rear cylinder and then they both fire together again for the front cylinder. So, there is a crank phase difference of 270 degrees for ignition, followed by 450 degrees until the next one = 720 degrees or two full rotations. The RITA pickup is running at half of crankshaft speed so the lobes are disposed by 135 degrees and 225 degrees = 360 degrees.

RB
1980 Laverda Jota     
1982 Hesketh V1000    
1985 Laverda SFC1000
1995 Triumph 900 Daytona Super III   
1999 Triumph 1200 Daytona Special Edition

Miti

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Re: Spragged..!!
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2015, 10:06:59 PM »
Hi Rob...

I have to admit, what you say sounds correct... I don't think I've ever used the rear lead to set the timing before either... And... The bike is still playing up...

I had her all boxed up and ready for a long ride in todays glorious sunshine... She didn't make it to the end of our path..!!  >:( >:(

Within seconds of me taking her off choke, she dropped onto one cylinder... The rear one.  I stopped the engine and swapped the plug... She fired up on two... I rode off... Within 100 yards she was back onto one cylinder...  I struggled on, hoping the 2nd cyl would 'chime in'.  It didn't...

I brought the bike back home and swapped the front plug for a new one... It worked for about half a minute...

Whilst I was playing about with the 'relay coil mod' I managed to pull the metal end off the front cyl HT lead... I re-attached it, but it was a bit of a 'faff'.  I decided to swap this lead for a solid copper corred one...  No difference...  Front cyl 'missing' and eventually fouled again...

Tomorrow I'll swap the coil leads over and see if the fault swaps from front to rear cyls...  I'm beginning to think that all my recent problems may have been down to a 33 yr old ignition coil starting to break down... Could explain why the timing appeared to be so wrong when using the front lead as the trigger for the strobe..?? :-\

If the fault does swap cyls, I'll probably replace both coils to keep them as 'a pair' and keep the remaing good 2nd Hd one as a spare...

Jeff
1975 Triumph Trident 750 (New Project)
1980 Yamaha XS1100 (Midnight Special)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Trike Project)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Reg'd 1985)
1982 Hesketh V1000 (Pre-Production Engine)

Rob B

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Re: Spragged..!!
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2015, 08:58:56 PM »
Your bike is putting up a good fight Jeff but it will be worth it in the end....

I had a good day at the Somerton Dyno with my V1000. We started off with 62hp at the rear wheel which is about 79bhp at the crank and a bit disappointing but with an AFR of 12 through most of the range which is somewhat rich. Reducing the Main Jets from 155 to 145 resulted in an AFR of 13.4 and an increase in rear wheel bhp to 68, about 88bhp at the crank. This was achieved at a self-imposed rev limit of 7,000 but the curve was still climbing slightly and I would estimate about 7,200 as the peak. What was really impressive was 75% of peak power available at only 4,000 rpm which makes for great overtaking and "real world" riding.

I have to say, the V1000 running at full power at 7,000 rpm sounds awesome!

Keep up the good work!

RB
1980 Laverda Jota     
1982 Hesketh V1000    
1985 Laverda SFC1000
1995 Triumph 900 Daytona Super III   
1999 Triumph 1200 Daytona Special Edition

Rob B

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Re: Spragged..!!
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2015, 09:29:42 PM »
Slight change to the above:

If we use 20% as the gearing and transmission losses from crank to rear wheel power then my two Dyno runs are as follows:

Run1 - 62hp at the rear wheel is approximately 78bhp at the crank
Changed jets.
Run2 - 68hp at the rear wheel is approximately 85bhp at the crank.

Given that a Factory V1000 with its plasticine valve springs, rubbish cam profiles and Triumph Dolomite valves produces about 65bhp at the crank at best, then I'm fairly pleased with this.

RB
1980 Laverda Jota     
1982 Hesketh V1000    
1985 Laverda SFC1000
1995 Triumph 900 Daytona Super III   
1999 Triumph 1200 Daytona Special Edition

Miti

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Re: Spragged..!!
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2015, 10:56:27 PM »
Nice One Rob... :D

Those figures sound great - the bike must really pull well now...

My own V1000 is running properly again now...  After checking the compression on both cyls on Sunday (just o be certain I wasn't carrying a mechanical fault) I ditched the coil relay mod, pulled the float bowls, cleaned all the jets and fitted new plugs...

She started up fine, so my pal Chris and I went out for a bit of a test ride - 150 miles later I'm going to say she's OK (for the minute).

My bike is running 150 main jets and with the accel pumps wound back in and the timing freshly set, she's pulling more cleanly than she ever has for me...  Got another ride down to Northumberland planned this weekend, then another to the Highlands the week after - then Spain

Jeff
1975 Triumph Trident 750 (New Project)
1980 Yamaha XS1100 (Midnight Special)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Trike Project)
1981 Yamaha XS1100 Sport (Reg'd 1985)
1982 Hesketh V1000 (Pre-Production Engine)